Jessica Stover (00:07):
Hey, everyone. Welcome to Networks Looks At.

Jessica Stover (00:10):
This recording is an offering of Networks for Training and Development's Online University.

Jessica Stover (00:16):
Hey, everyone. This is Jessica Stover with Networks for Training and Development and welcome to A Taste of Wellness, a series of podcasts. Today we're joined by Rosa McAllister, also of Networks, and I'll let her introduce herself in a moment. And she's gonna be talking about Holding Space. So with that, Rosa, could you introduce yourself, and let us know what led you to this work?

Rosa McAllister (00:44):
Thanks, Jess. Hi, everyone. Um, good questions. Um, so yes, I am the co-founder of Networks for Training and Development. And I guess in one way or another, I've been "holding space" for a long time (laughs). Um, I'm the youngest in a large family, and I was a ... kind of as a child, was very shy and a quiet observer. And would just kind of watch others, watch things happening around this big, boisterous family and all the going-ons.

Rosa McAllister (01:14):
And oftentimes, I was the one that, from the time I was a child all the way through now, people would come to, to tell me their stuff. Or to ask for advice. Or, I was always it seeming, um, I was with ... Um, as I started working, I was with kind of the toughest people. Um, people seemed to think that I had a calming aspect, um, even though there was a lot of times turmoil within.

Rosa McAllister (01:39):
But I guess it was this idea that I held space, as I would call it now. In other words, um, created a, an environment or an area that others were comfortable in being. That they didn't have to conform or they didn't have to do something. So, I think it's something that I've always been doing.

Jessica Stover (02:03):
And given that, you know, what are you known for? And what do you bring to others?

Rosa McAllister (02:10):
Well, I hope good things. I'm sure there's some other not 100% great things that I'm known for and that I've brought to others, but I am trying to still clean the slate and be a work in progress. But um, I have worked with a lot of folks who others have seen as maybe being very troubled, or troubling, or hard to be with. And I've oftentimes found myself being very, very comfortable with them. Um, people have told me that they can be more open with me. Um, that I've allowed them, or helped them to find themself within.

Rosa McAllister (02:49):
A lot of the work I have done, um, in the past couple of decades has been with people who communicate very differently, or we're not sure how they communicate. So there was a need to really quiet myself to "hear" them. And I always kinda say hear, with, in quotes. To "hear" them sometimes with my eyes, sometimes with my gut, sometimes with my soul, but not as much just with my ears as most of us think hearing is.

Rosa McAllister (03:16):
Um, so with people, with people, with everyone, but with people who communicate very differently, or people who have, um, anxiety or trauma, or other things going on, it's, there's really a need to kind of look to them and see them and hear them differently. Not just in words they might be using, or the sounds they might be making, but more for what's deeper within, and what they are really conveying on other ways.

Rosa McAllister (03:44):
And I've always been pretty intuitive, um, so that enters into this too. But I'd like to think that I helped people to, um, be more themselves and feel heard. And feel seen and, uh, in that way, I guess I'm holding space. Um, I also nowadays work a lot with people in hospice. So they're people who ... I mean, to be in hospice to have to kinda qualify by having a diagnosis of something or other that means you, um, are probably not gonna be around for six months or less. Your death is coming soon.

Rosa McAllister (04:23):
And so, really being with those in hospice who are at that final stage in life is an extraordinary, extraordinary gift. And an unbelievable gift. I oftentimes walk away feeling like I'm the winner. Um, and hoping that I provided something to them. But you really need to quiet yourself. You really need to drop your drama. You really need to find ways to just be with someone, particularly at this stage in their life, as well as their caregivers.

Rosa McAllister (04:54):
So I remember a great piece of advice that completely befuddled me many, many moons ago. It was from a, a woman who became a very dear friend of mine, Jennifer Seybert. Jenn Seybert. Um, she was someone who communicated very differently. And when I first met her, in trying to hear her fully, in the many way she communicated, she instructed me, that before I should ... Before I come to her to be with her, I should "think like a blue lake." That was a quote. "Think like a blue lake." And I remember thinking, like, "What? Like, uh, I, I mean, I get the basic idea. But, what? How does one think like a blue lake?"

Rosa McAllister (05:37):
And in knowing Jenn and knowing her and understanding over time, what she was saying was kind of the same idea of those meditating is trying to quiet yourself. Trying, trying to undo the buzz. Trying to ground yourself. And finds way that you're just being with a person, not doing anything. And so for me, that thinking like a blue lake, took a lot of practice. Particularly because as I'd be going to see Jenn, I'd be driving an hour and a half up to see her on the turnpike and you know, buzz, buzz, buzz, do, do, do, and then, "Oh, that's right. I'm supposed to be a blue lake. I'm supposed to think like a blue lake before I get in here."

Rosa McAllister (06:19):
And I started doing a variety of different things before I would spend time with Jenn. And they went back to some of my meditation practices that I'd been doing since I was very young. I was very lucky I was brought to transcendental meditation classes when I was 12 years old by my older brother. And meditation had always been a part of my life. Various parts of my life. So before I would go into be with Jenn, trying to think like a blue lake, I would ... Even though I was still sitting in my car, and even though I had just given an hour and a half, I would try to do a series of alternative breathings, to kind of lower myself (laughs).

Rosa McAllister (07:02):
I would try to take time before I would get to her house, a few miles from her house, I would turn off the music, I would turn off whatever, and I would just try to sink into whatever other sounds I was hearing around me. When I would park outside, I would always try to get there a little early, and I'd try to sink into the visions around me and just notice, as we say, notice what I, what we notice. Focus in on whatever is present around you. Uh, it's a mindfulness practice.

Rosa McAllister (07:34):
When I would go in to be with Jenn, um, she would be very hyper initially in anticipation and just the change of energy of someone else coming into the room and all of that. And what I found is that, if I didn't look at her directly, that helped. Because that was just one more level of something, of energy and something that she had to deal with. And many of us have these sensations and feelings regarding um, our vision and, and trying to focus in. Um, and so not looking directly at someone or something sometimes help.

Rosa McAllister (08:13):
I would not go right up to Jenn and give her a big hug because just my entering into the room, entering into the space, was enough of an energy shift that I needed to minimize my physical movement with her, in general, and directly at her. So I never got really close to Jenn initially. And I found this is also very, very important, all these things, you are going into someone's home who is in hospice, or going into their space. Or going into someone that I'm working with to provide massage who I know deals with a lot of anxiety or trauma. In order to build the space and hold the space with someone, I need to minimize the space I'm taking up in terms of my physicalness and everything else. S, I can be very verbose and talk a lot. In these situations, I try to be extremely quiet and not speak at all, or only speak when spoken to.

Rosa McAllister (09:15):
Um, I try to mirror the person's physical movements. So if the person stands up, I might stand up. If the person sits down, I might sit down. If the person, for example in hospice is already laying down, I might enter into the area, and then lower myself, sit or something, kneel even beside the bed, so that I am at the same physical level as they are. It's just then ... It's a nice thing that's I've found, it's a respectful thing, but energetically, it's way more than that. Um, it's getting in sync with the person.

Rosa McAllister (09:54):
What happens over time, is I find myself that I start actually breathing oftentimes in sync with the person. I don't try to make that happen, but as I sink into the space and into the energy of the person, I kind of just start mirroring their breath patterns as well. I'm mindful of sense and colors and what I'm wearing. Jingle-jangling jewelry and all that kind of stuff before I even arrive. I have one person that I worked with for a long time that, um, told me that she actual ... She absolutely loved the lavender lotion that I would sometimes use. And she eventually required that of anyone who came to work with her, that they had to use a lavender lotion before they would work with her. Because it helped her feel calm and gentle.

Rosa McAllister (10:45):
I have someone else that I'm assisting now that can't handle many different scents. But she can handle some essential oils. Other perfumes and things like that, heaven forbid, the worst is Lysol smell. Or bleach, she can't handle at all. She also can't handle stripes or any kind of really vivid colors. So I'm aware with, or that. When I'm with, and ... with her, and try to make sure I don't wear that. I also found out about this by asking. In a moment of calmness and quiet with her, asking, "What works for you? And what should I be doing differently?"

Rosa McAllister (11:19):
I, I always try to take up upon my self with someone, and apologize that maybe I something incorrect, or I did something wrong. That it's not their fault. For many of these folks whether they be folks with disabilities, folks with autism, folks with chronic illness, folks who are dying, folks with trauma, grief, anxiety, all of these folks oftentimes are left feeling like they're at fault. They're broken, they're wrong. And so one of the biggest things, um, I learned is by taking it upon myself and apologizing, say, "Look, I'm human. I'm probably gonna get some things wrong here in our relationship, and I just need to apologize for that. But I also need you to help me understand what I can do differently."

Rosa McAllister (12:08):
And I bring up, you know, "Is there something I shouldn't wear? Is there something I shouldn't do? Is there something I shouldn't wear?" Um, and that's where the idea of scents and colors, and even the roles me play come up. Um, I remember one person telling me, I should never be on her left side. And I didn't understand why initially but then later found out that because of terrible abuse that she has, um, encountered throughout her life, she has which ... visual discrimination which was on the left that are very, very strong. And it has to do with memory of where her bed was as a child. And how her bed would sometimes be raided from the left. So these things, you know, we don't necessarily know and they're not generalized across everybody. But we find that out by being with someone and just gently asking if there's ... and taking upon ourselves, "What can I do different?"

Rosa McAllister (13:05):
Um, another thing is, I try to accept anything as communication. So if I see someone getting, what appears like uncomfortable or agitated, I check in. And I just say, you know, "I don't want you to be bothered, but, am I okay?" I try not to say, "You look agitated." I don't say that. Because that's putting it on them. I try to say something like, um, "If I'm doing anything that's not tolerable, or if you're done, you want me to leave, please, I, I again, I'm fine." Um, the more that I find that I do these things, the more the person feels comfortable, and we hold space together. It's probably a lot of things, Jess, that ...

Jessica Stover (13:46):
That's terrific, Rosa. Thanks. So you know, this, notion of holding space and how we can all do this, and think about this more deeply, what are some other maybe easy, every day, or additional favorite go-to or simple things that you do, but more broadly that anyone can do and start practicing?

Rosa McAllister (14:13):
Mm-hmm. Love that. I think that in this day in age, we all need to consider others better, and this idea of holding space, or being with people. Um, and it's kind of being somebody without expectation. That whatever happens, happens. I think we need to do this more. As we're running around more and still busy, and we're all doing so much, we all just need emptiness and just kind of blank space. And to have someone that you trust enough that you know that there's not expectation that I have to perform or I have to be dressed a ceratin way, or I have to do this, or I have to do that, is an extraordinary gift. And to be that person for someone else, is an unbelievable gift that you can give. And I think we all can give it.

Rosa McAllister (15:09):
But I think the first thing is we all need to take care or ourselves. We can't do this if we're a balled up mess. You know, we're hyper, to-do list, checklist, um, "I only have five minutes for you," kind of is the space that we're in. So we need to take care of ourselves. I'm a big proponent for drinking, drinking, drinkings lots of water. Lots and lots of water. Um, to hydrate. Um, and I don't just drink water. I drink water or cucumbers sliced it, and sometimes mix salt in it if I need, um, kind of a pick me up because it helps reenergize me.

Rosa McAllister (15:47):
I can do it. I have very low blood pressure and I don't have issues with salt and I use a very clean salt that's actually from here in Hawaii, I know the source. And, but just drinking lots of water really helps. Because it helps flush our systems. It helps us stay hydrated. It helps us frankly get stuff out of us, purge. And it's not just you know, a kind of chemical stuff and other stuff and food stuff, it's kinds of other stuff and we can visualize it pulling more things out of us.

Rosa McAllister (16:20):
Um, breathing. I've already mentioned this, but this idea of breathing purposefully. Breathing with intention. Um, and not just when you're gonna be with someone who you are trying to hold space with and for. But better breathing all the time for us. So I start every day and I end every day with a certain type of alternative breathing that I do. Um, there's ... I'm not sure if you hear, there's a siren in the background. Sorry. Everything's fine, it's just a practice.

Rosa McAllister (16:54):
Um, there are all kinds of different things we can do like that. Being able to, you know, make ourself move throughout the day. Whether it's just walking or bending over and touching our toes if we can, or just swinging our arms. Dancing is phenomenal. Jess, I know you hear me talk about this all the time, and I know you're a devotee. But dancing, and moving, and shaking ourself is so important. It helps unleash and unburden and move things around within in. And by taking better care or ourself by doing these things, we're more sensitive to how we can be with others. And we are more conscious of that, and we're better at it.

Rosa McAllister (17:40):
And this whole idea of gradually trying to breathe with someone, with another person, um, comes more naturally when we are trying different ways to breathe for ourselves. Especially if we find ourselves getting hyped up. Tee excited, or angry, or upset ... You know the old adage of count to 10 is not a bad one. The old adage of take a couple of deep breaths is not a bad idea. There's a lot of different stuff we can do for ourselves on a regular basis. And the long term is, that's gonna help is be other people.

Rosa McAllister (18:14):
I think the last thing that I would add, and there's ... I could go on, there's probably some of these. But the last thing I would add, and I've already mentioned this, is this idea of expectation. I know for myself, I still fall into the trap of, you know, "Oh, I'm gonna go see someone alone with who I really want to make sure that I do this, this, and this." And, uh, that's not always the best thing. Especially if this is someone who you know has issues with anxiety, with trauma, or you don't know very well, or they've asked you to come and you're not sure why, or whatever. There's a million different reasons.

Rosa McAllister (18:51):
I think the more we can go to be with others with lessened expectations, with lessened, um, things that we expect to come out of it, or hopes even of what can come out of it, with less agenda on our part, I think better. And what I found in my sage old years these days is, the more that I do that, the more actually is accomplished. And the farther we oftentimes get, further in the relationship with another person, as well as on some of those agenda items that we actually wanna get to. Because even if we don't have then on our agenda, they're still in our minds. And they might likely very easily come up and you might be able to work through them with this other person without having it on a checkList and agenda, "Well, what I really came here to talk about was ..." Which, never makes us very comfortable when someone does that.

Rosa McAllister (19:48):
So, last ... Oo! Last but not least, one more - and "one more thing" as I'm famous for saying - taking care of yourself afterwards, after being with someone. Particularly if it was a stressful or potentially stressful situation for you or for them. Um, particularly if it, if it was in group situation or something like that. And it was tough. Particularly through sadness or any kind of high emotion, we need to take care of ourselves afterwards. I think too often after those situations we're just like, "Good, that's over, I'm outta here. Put that outta my mind." Not so good.

Rosa McAllister (20:27):
So an animal, if you see an animal after they've had an encounter, um, they might go rest, but first they shake it off. And they literally, like a dog coming out of an, a lake, will shake from nose to tail, just shake it off. Shake it off. Some of us will almost do like a, a shaking or a brushing of ourselves off. From the top of our head to the bottom of our feet, literally brushing off whatever else was there. I oftentimes say to myself something to the effect of, "I release whatever is not mine, and I pull back whatever is mine."

Rosa McAllister (21:05):
Because sometimes when I'm with someone who is dying, or when I'm with someone who's very anxious, or very sad, or very troubled in whatever way, you can't help but pick up some of that energy and some of their stuff if you will. You don't want that stuck to you, globbed onto you. Because it's not yours. And so by doing whatever you can to jump and shake or brush yourself, or whatever you can do, and to really be thinking about that you're releasing whatever is not yours. And you're calling back to yourself, your truer self, and whatever is yours. It's a really important practice to do afterwards.

Jessica Stover (21:47):
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